Update #31: Welcome to the Grove

Discussion in 'Announcements' started by Jules, Jul 1, 2016.

  1. Jules

    Jules Developer Staff Member

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    Happy July, everyone!

    Remember to sign up for the closed beta if you haven't already. We're limiting the number of people in the closed beta and also raffling out prizes to those that sign up, so earlier is better! The game launches at the end of this year.

    The Grove legion is completed!

    The Grove is an enchanted garden, home to thousands of species of flora and fauna. Its inhabitants resemble creatures that could have been imagined by a child, evoking the feeling of "too good to be true." Most organisms, notably the plants, are magnificently and brightly colored. But as beautiful as things look, beware the dangers that lie in the brush or beneath the flower.

    The Grove legion is one of four legions (races) that will be available when the game launches, and more will be designed over time.

    Deathcap resized.png Canopie resized.png
    Deathcap and Canopie from the Grove legion

    We're upgrading our art!

    As an independent game studio, we're choosing to invest most of our resources into designing and balancing the game and making sure it's fun. But having good art is important too, which is why we hired Drakhas. Drakhas is a young, talented artist from Istanbul who is also an avid gamer and fan of Legion TD 2. Here's a taste of what you can expect:

    Butcher resized 2.png
    Butcher from the Forsaken legion (early stage design)

    Gameplay footage of the Legion TD 2 demo!

    The Legion TD 2 pre-alpha demo launched last month to just 100 Kraken+ Kickstarter backers. We want to thank everyone that shared their thoughts about the demo. Your feedback will make a big difference in improving the full game. For those of you that didn't get to play or see the demo, check out this awesome community-made footage:

    Frazzz is a professional content creator at Smash Gaming and Legion TD 2 fan from the UK:



    LForward is a veteran Legion TD player, streamer, and Legion TD 2 forum moderator from Germany:



    Recent Highlights

    Development is moving along nicely. Here’s what Lisk and I have been up to over the last month:
    • Released our first playable content in the form of a pre-alpha demo
    • Released the Grove legion and working on their 3D models and animations
    • Hired a new artist, who is creating 2D concept art for the Forsaken legion
    • Designing a next-gen matchmaking system, called Prophet, to ensure fair and quickly formed matches
    • Converting gameplay systems from singleplayer to multiplayer (continued)
    • Developing validation and benchmarking tools to optimize the game (continued)
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2016
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  2. Xanadu

    Xanadu Member

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    I'm surprised that people have kind of ignored this for the last week, Since this confirms that Grove is actually a new legion and not just a port like the other ones are. Also I'm glad to hear that the art team is expanding, can't wait to see what you guys come up with.

    However, I have some questions/comments about the grove.

    I'm very excited about the banana bunk/haven, it sounds like one of the strongest units yet in terms of power since its a aoe/bounce attacker that doesn't seem to be penalized for single target- I assume that in the balancing phase at some point some kind of damage penalty will be placed when it is attacking just one target? Like maybe extra banana's at same target only deal 50% damage, so its single target damage is 200% not 300% but meh, haven't even seen the game as a whole yet, should just wait and see.

    I'm kind of disappointed with the Canopie, Upgraded units that don't have anything cool to them are always boring and usually don't feel fun to play with. I do like its flavor very much, but it would be neat if it had some kind of ability to it. Like here's an idea- maybe when a Canopie dies it releases spores to up to 5 nearby targets, similar to the Tree of Knowledge in Mega. maybe make it a dot as well, maybe it doesn't even have to be that effective- but I just feel making sure upgraded units have flavor is important(t1 units are the exception to this). Or maybe something more lazy, give Canopies lifesteal since it seems carnivorous. At the least changing its damage type to magic could be an option- or maybe make it even more neat and make it deal half normal half magic.

    Honeyflower/deathcap are going to be heavily used units, everyone knows auras are powerful to boost your legion with, so they will definitely get played like many auras have always been in legion.

    Finally, I love the Antler/Whitemane, at least the idea of it. While it doesnt always work out as an effective strategy I'm glad to see that we will have a unit like this for launch.
     
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  3. Jules

    Jules Developer Staff Member

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    I like this idea!

    Most of the game balance and some of the ability design is placeholder. We want to finish the art design of all the characters and then do a pass on their gameplay. We'll be adding more abilities and unique attributes. I completely agree with you that it's important for units to have flavor, especially upgraded units!
     
  4. Jamo

    Jamo Member

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    @Xanadu: I was wondering where you get all that information from. And... what can I say, up to now I didn't realize that one can CLICK on the avatars on the overview page. OMG....

    @Jules: Nice work finishing the first legion, congrats!

    My thoughts about the Grove: Diverse
    #1
    I like that the Buzz has some nice abilities, so it must not necessary be a wasted t1 nobody builds. Maybe it's similar to the Gnoll now and I think the Buzz is so cute, it would be a waste if it wouldn't be played!

    #2
    I get that you haven't figured out all the abilities yet, and I have literally no idea about game balancing etc, but a thought about the Ranger/Daphne: Looks like the Ranger is overpowered. It already has the mark target ability from Meliali which is super nice, and it doesn't change when upgraded to Daphne. It should probably be weaker for ranger (10%?) than for Daphne. (I wanted to write more here, but I had some wrong numbers in mind, which made me think Ranger is super overpowered, nvm that. Just be aware of the ability ;) )

    #3
    I start having worries about some tower designs... Someone mentioned that when the Buzz and BananaBunk were shown first, this I liked and still like. But to be honest, I laughed out really loud when I saw Antler and Whitemane. Sorry, but what is this? Those two units look a bit like a satire of your own game. Antler looks like a normal Goose with a ridiculously giant antler standing there a bit lost and Whitemane like a hippie goose on drugs. And at this point, I think the art and design of (especially) those towers does not follow one clear idea, because for me they do not fit in. Like mentioned above, someone had this feeling for Bananabunks and Buzz already earlier, but here I liked it because it was more subtle and cute with super nice design. But Antler and Whitemane.. sorry, totally do not fit for me. I'm sorry for the direct criticism, but I hope to have pointed out my thoughts clear enough (sometimes not 100% possible in english :p) and I know you won't feel offended. I also know you cannot make it right for everyone ;)

    #4
    Before I write anything here, let me ask a question: Is the design of the avatars (all, not just Grove) final or preliminary as well?

    Best & keep the good work going :)
    Jamo
     
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  5. Xanadu

    Xanadu Member

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    @Jamo I personally disagree with your critique of the Antler and Whitemane. They fit in very well with the rest of the art design of the game, in particular if you look at the mercenaries(Safety Mole, Mimic)/wave monsters(Wale/Hoppers) that are already finished it all fits the aesthetics. As you said, there is no pleasing everyone- but I think the most important thing in general is just making sure that everything fits together in terms of art style. So far nothing I've seen truly feels out of place- while the Grove is definitely housing the sillier looking units, many of the Mercs/Monsters are in a similar vein.

    As far as #2 as Jules responded to me, balancing and adding/removing/adjusting abilities is definitely going to take place, but first its important just to get the first 4 legions in game to test with.

    and to #4 obviously its up to Jules and team, but I'm pretty sure they're sharing this stuff now for feedback, so I think its open to adjustments, but ultimately like I said earlier in this response, I myself don't feel like anything deviates from the art style, but yes the grove definitely has a more silly/lighthearted feel to it.
     
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  6. Jamo

    Jamo Member

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    Good! Actually I hope I am the only one finding them strange.
    I also don't disagree they wouldn't fit with the art, the style is the same. I am just imagining a row of Antlers standing in my first tower line, attacking with their over the top big antler but at the same time looking like they were taken from reality and put into the game. I think my problem with the Antler is, that it looks too normal in this fantasy world. I cannot explain it better, sorry. Maybe it's just me and then everything is fine anyhow. Maybe it's also a bit like "I like everything you guys do here so much, but I have to find something I don't like".

    Concerning #4 then:
    I am not sure if this is also a too early stage to write because sometimes it's hard to find out if things are "strange" just because they are new and one is not yet used to them.
    What I noticed in the alpha and when looking at the Avatars of the Elemental is, that I could barely differentiate the avatars by just looking at them with a glimpse. I really had to look very detailed to differentiate them, because due to their "elemental style" they are very blurry and look more like just colors than like towers. Especially Proton, Atom, Aqua, violet, mudman, fire elementa and Fenix I have/had troubles with. This is not the case for all other races, there the avatars look much more clear to me!
    The problem might just be, that I don't know the actual towers yet and after playing, my brain will easier make connections and one gets used to the style. But I noticed I had a hard time differentiating them in game and just wanted to share, because maybe it applies to first time players as well.
    Second thing I noticed, some avatars just look like zoom ins. Discile for example to me looks very unsharp, whereas Starcaller looks perfect. This applies to more avatars but I think this is just due to the early stage and another reason why I didn't want to write this at first.

    Again, don't get me wrong, I love what you guys to here and I am super excited because I know you will do a perfect job in the end :)
     
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  7. Jules

    Jules Developer Staff Member

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    Thanks for all the feedback, Xanadu and Jamo!

    I agree that Ranger might be a bit OP if she has the same ability as Daphne. Once we revisit everything, they will either have different abilities, or Ranger will have reduced combat stats compared to Daphne. TBD!

    Regarding the art style of Grove fighters, they are definitely more cartoony than usual, and that was intentional. Most units will not look like this going forward. Our new artist Drakhas is amazing (see Butcher above), and we'll be showing off more of his work this month or on August 1st. Stay tuned. :)
     
  8. PriapismMan

    PriapismMan Member

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    Hi ! The game looks awesome so far! Great work! I have a question about mid to late game , if the game slows down at all ? I only ask because I noticed the moving harvesters/workers . If so , have you considered removing them ?
     
  9. Jules

    Jules Developer Staff Member

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    Just to clarify, are you talking about the Legion TD 2 demo? If you're experiencing any performance issues, keep in mind that the demo was not optimized, so the game might slow down for some people. Once we optimize things, performance will be significantly improved for everyone, and having moving workers shouldn't be an issue. :)
     
  10. Nortan

    Nortan Member

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    First of all I'd like to say it might be a bad idea to reinstate WC3 natures meliai with it's peircing debuff into this game. Luckily there was so few piercing attackers in legion that it didn't really become a big deal until wyvern. These decent long range piercing attackers became extremely powerful with meliai support and a large part of teams end game strategy was about massive wyverns and getting some meliai for debuff. It looks like you are actually introducing stronger piercing attackers and even a t6 with piercing (which there are none in WC3). I feel that with this debuff you will constantly be balancing/designing around it or having it simply be way too good for some piercing attackers. It might be best to just toss or redesign this one; especially if you are doing the endless wave type ending to the game.

    For 3.41/3.5 I calculated EHPG (effective health per gold) and DPSPG (damage per second per value) to give a rough idea of a tower effectiveness. Armor isn't factored in and would require a multiplier based on the attacker (so just assume choas damage and unarmored armor). EHPG is generally just health divided by gold value but some other things are considered based on abilities. DPSPG is just average attack speed divided by attack speed then divided by gold value with abilities accounted for if possible.

    I had to estimate the attack speeds for these based on the multiplier given in the statistics. Since zues is 4.0 and in WC3 it's attack speed is 0.25 I'm hoping dividing 1 by the given multiplier will give me a close approximation to the actual attack speed. Please understand there are many variables not taken into account.

    DPSPG

    1. Buzz
    (8-12) 10 / 1.493 (1/.67) attk spe / 15g = [.447] dpspg X 1.25 pierce debuff = [.559]
    Consort
    (65-70) 67.5 / 1.493 attk spe / 100g = [.452] X 1.25 pierce debuff = [.565]

    2. Ranger (15-20) 17.5 / .901 (1/1.11) attk spe / 40g = [.486] X 1.25 = [.607]
    Daphne
    (48-58) 53 / 1.099 (1/.91) attk spe / 155g = [.311] X 1.25 = [.389]

    3. Wildshroom (28-38) 33 / 1.00 attk spe / 80g = [.413]
    Canopie
    (66-76) 71 / 1.00 atkk spe / 220g = [.323]

    4. Honey Flower
    (38-40) 39 / .752 (1/1.33) attk spe / 130g = [.399]
    Deathtrap
    (62-72) 67 / .752 atkk spe / 280g = [.318]

    5. Antler (88-100) 94 / 1.099 (1/.91) attk spe / 140g = [.450]
    Whitemane
    (148-164) 156 / 1.099 attk spe / 395g = [.359]

    6. Banana Bunk
    (96-110) 103 / .952 (1/1.05) attk spe / 300g = [.361] X 1.25 = [.451]
    Banana Haven
    (96-110) 103 X 3 = 309 / .549 (1/1.82) attack spe / 630g = [.893] X 1.25 = [1.117]

    EHPG

    1. Buzz
    80/15 = 5.33
    Consort
    525/100 = 5.35

    2. Ranger 170/40 = 4.25
    Daphne
    440/155 = 2.84

    3. Wildshroom 495/80 = 6.188
    Canopie
    1085/220 = 4.93

    4. Honey Flower
    790/130 = 6.077
    Deathtrap
    1370/280 = 4.893

    5. Antler
    1400/190 = 7.368 X 1.10 (council) = 8.105
    Whitemane
    1875/395 = 4.747 X 1.10 = 5.222

    6. Banana Bunk
    1800/300 = 6.000 (fortified)
    Banana Haven
    2100/630 = 3.333 (fortified)

    I suppose by adding these values you can get an approximation of a units effectiveness as well. dpspg would need a X10 multiplier though to give it's values a closer comparison to EH. Frail, low EH, ranged will have punished value here obviously since you can't account for them being in the back with blockers to protect them. Higher cost towers tend to suffer in EH due to a higher base health value. Health and sometimes dps generally doesn't scale with gold linearly in legion so upgrades often have worse EH even though they are still superior.

    It is best to compare towers of similar gold cost and tier/upgrade if you want to actually get a useful comparison from these numbers. As I said, higher cost towers tend to have lower values due to scaling (this is not always the case though)

    1. Buzz 4.47 + 5.33 = 9.8 -> 5.59 + 5.33 = 10.92
    Consort
    4.52 + 5.35 = 9.87 -> 5.65 + 5.35 = 11.00

    2. Ranger
    4.86 + 4.25 = 9.11 -> 6.07 + 4.25 = 10.32
    Daphne
    3.11 + 2.84 = 5.95 -> 3.89 + 2.85 = 6.74

    3. Wildshroom
    4.13 + 6.19 = 10.32
    Canopie
    3.23 + 4.93 = 8.16

    4. Honey Flower
    3.99 + 6.08 = 10.07
    Deathtrap
    3.18 + 4.93 = 8.11

    5. Antler
    4.5 + 7.37 = 11.87 -> 4.5 + 8.15 = 12.55
    Whitmane
    3.59 + 4.75 = 8.34 ->3.59 + 5.22 = 8.81

    6. Banana Bunk
    3.61 + 6 = 9.61 -> 4.51 + 6 = 10.51
    Banana Haven
    8.93 + 3.33 = 12.26 -> 11.17 + 3.33 = 14.5

    I can't make too many conclusions until I can play with them. From my initial observations I feel that daphne will be terrible as it is and only decent if you really want mediocre ranged damage or don't feel like relying on rangers for the super strong 25% piercing debuff. Wildshroom looks like a decent early game tank for range longer than 225. Canopie seems quite bad unless it gets an ability or better stats. Honey flower and deathtrap aren't very good BUT they both have auras and the death traps slow aura is extremely powerful (anyone that has used tree of time and magnataur in WC3 knows this). Antler looks really good and super tanky with 1400 health for only 190 gold. Whitemane looks okay but it seems like its aura is the most important part (I assumed it works like goliath aura and just can just buff each other once). Banana bunk looks good and decently tanky. Banana Haven is a ridiculously powerful attacker if I'm understanding it's ability correct. Even with it's lowish health banana haven will be way too good if it's attacking stats are what I have interpreted them to be. It seems like it's attack speed might be a little high. I do question whether the game needs meliais 25% piercing debuff and tree of times 30% movement slowing aura from WC3. The debuff can affect the game quite a bit based on what piercing attackers (especially ranged) there will be. IMO the slow aura has shown itself to make too much of a difference vs melee waves (so almost every wave). For all I know about legiontd2 though the slow aura might not be as effective as with WC3 format.
     
  11. Pr0gramm3r

    Pr0gramm3r Member

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    Although the update is a little "old", if you can say that actually, i would like to say that the Pre-Alpha looks pretty good, especially for it's current stage, even if i don't played it. It already looks great in terms of design, even if there is some room for improvement and the basic functionality is already there. Seems already pretty good to me. Thumbs up!

    I already can't wait to play it in December. I guess it will be a good ending for this year, at least for me. Keep up the great work and i can't wait for more ingame stuff, you will share with us!
     
  12. Jules

    Jules Developer Staff Member

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    Thanks for the in depth analysis, @Nortan. Keep in mind that the current balance is still very tentative. I'll be spending a lot of time on game balance before the closed beta and also using data to monitor things after the game launches.

    Really glad you think it looks good, @Pr0gramm3r. That's encouraging to hear. :)